Claire: Um…well you were talking about slavery and how we didn’t discuss it enough but I also, I mean, you really can’t understate the impact that slavery has had on modern race relations, and um, and even the inherited trauma. I think we didn’t talk enough about…for the black experience, and I guess for the white experience to a degree, I dunno how you feel about that. (Justin typing in background)
Justin: Uh-ha…uhhh…
C: I mean, its definitely true that, I mean the treatment of blacks in this country allowed for the successes of whites in this country, ya’know? But what I was gonna say is that, um, I think there is a danger in too much, um, equating that…I mean it does speak too…I guess, you know a lot of white people’s understanding of blacks and a lot of white people’s understanding of blacks, but there are populations, and I would include myself among them, you know my understanding of race relations and privilege is much more tied up in colonialism then it is in slavery just because…you know, what I was saying before…I would be considered African American, but I’m not in the same sense…
J: You don’t have a hyphen.
C: I don’t have a hyphen. I’m African and American. And you know I, like, and because of that I enjoy privileges that blacks descended from slaves don’t, I know…
J: You’re tied to a country.
C: I’m tied to a country. I know exactly where my ancestors came from and what language they spoke. I have…
J: So you’re actually Congolese American.
C: I’m actually Congolese. I have inherited the culture of them too.
J: Right.
C: But at the same time someone who is, as you put it, American American American American African, if you’re going to look at it in generations also has access to parts of American culture that I don’t.
J: You think so?
C: Well there are huge disadvantages to having an immigrant parent, just the way the system works.
J: Oh right.
C: At least an immigrant parent that’s not white, or…
J: But do you think that…
C: Or non-native English speaker or…
J: Do you think that’s actually denied you access to some aspects of American culture?
C: Sure.
J: You personally? Not your father, or not you as part of your family, but just you as an individual? I mean, do you really feel like you’ve been…there are times when you have sort of been restricted from elements of American culture because of your Congolese heritage?
C: You would think that’s not true because I have a white parent as well?
J: No, not because you have a white parent, but just because you’ve grown up in America. Maybe I am just saying this as your friend, as someone who knows how thoroughly American you are, you know? Like, I would think that the times in which you might be denied entrance into “American” cultural arenas might have more to do with your skin color than your Congolese heritage.
C: Well, that’s because you are assuming America is white. But what about black American culture?
J: Right. Yeah, I did assume American meant white.
C: Yeah.
J: That’s what I was assuming. You feel you have been denied access to black American culture? This would be African-American culture with a hypen?
C: Not denied access too but…
J: It’s just more difficult?
C: Not even more difficult…It’s not even something, it’s just not something that I have. You know what I mean?
J: Right. But the interesting thing is its not…do you feel like its…but its not something you don’t have in the same way a white person doesn’t have necessarily, right? I mean, would you call yourself white?
C: No.
J: So, its like where does that put you in this American rubric of slavery and colonialism?
C: I’m just saying that there’s something to be said for being able to claim Americanness.
J: There is a lot to be said for it, yeah. Definitely. Definitely. There is something I wanted to say because of what you said earlier…shit …it had to do with…different nationality…oh right, yeah. I mean, just even like, OK, now I remember this actually with before the emotional scars of slavery or something, but I remember I asked you where names like where names like…um…. like Shaniqua. Where the name Shaniqua came from.
C: Or Jayquon or something like that.
J: Or Jayquon or like Tanika. These invented names. I think this whole questions of invented names for me speaks to the personal psychological trauma of slavery.
C: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
J: It’s sort of looking for…its really looking for…maybe not looking for, I shouldn’t…I don’t mean to project it as pathetic or as an attempt to do any one thing or another but I think its indicative of some kind of effort to reclaim an identity, an extra American identity, at least…
C: Right.
J: Extra-American geographically.
C: Right, because a lot of times Americanness is conflated with whiteness.
J: Right.
C: And so you need to claim some place else. The other thing about that is that’s where the legacy of slavery comes in. People think….(aside)not the legacy right…but yeah, exactly, the legacy. Blacks just haven’t had enough chances or there hasn’t been enough time yet for the recovery to happen, at least economically. Speaking to why black people are thought to be on welfare or…
J: Whatever else.
C: Whatever else.
J: I mean the thing I wanted to say, I just wanted to finish my thought, that…I think that look for something extra-American, because of historical circumstance and whatever, means that plays into the creation of this African dash American identity because all you can sort of look to is Africa as a continent.
C: Right because there is no hope here.
J: Right, not only no hope but there is no real memory the way you have a father and brothers and uncles and aunts from Congo. You have a direct connection to a place.
C: Right.
J: That.. and then I think the reverse of this whole process is America becomes this sort of bastion of whiteness and Africa becomes the ‘heart of darkness’, and Africa as a continent…which is totally like…you know…totally wack. At least in my experience, having been in Egypt, a country where people are very assertive about not being black…
C: Well, north Africa is a…
J: You know, north Africa see its…a lot of north Africa would probably see itself as sort of a special case but also just in general it kind of reduces Africa, or I shouldn’t say reduces, I suppose it does reduce…it casts Africa as a…you know America actually is a country. Africa is a continent. And that’s a significant difference that is kind of overlooked in this African-American identity, that’s like weird…that’s like saying your like you know European Venezuelan. You would never hear that in another context. That has to do with this real personal erasure, the personal erasure that comes with slavery I think.
C: Right. Right. And that would be…right. That’s inherited trauma. That’s directly from slavery. But then how about something about naming your daughter Tanika or Jayquon or whatever and people with those names are less likely to be hired than their white counterparts with identical credentials.
J: Yeah.
C: Because you know that study where they sent out all of those resumes where people had identical resumes, someone had a typically white name and someone had a black name.
J: Yeah.
C: You know, and that’s…that’s where talking about the legacy of slavery erases the choices that are made everyday. The legacy of slavery, sure it shapes how those say white employers are looking for people, but you know that’s still a choice that’s made right now.
J: Right. Well, I mean, another thing is I think the irony of this is…particularly if you are putting slavery in a dialectic with colonialism, is colonialism, the experience of colonialism for people in populations who are colonized frequently leads to a stronger national identity, you know? I mean, because the end of colonialism is often brought about by sort of nationalist movements and countries establish themselves as sort of antithetical to colonial powers. So in the case of your father, or in Congo you know… Congo establishes itself…its defined as a country against the colonial presence…
C: Right, so right…so when blacks were absorbed into the U.S. who do you blame? How can you fight against something that you are now part of? And I think that’s the question. That’s where whiteness becomes no longer white people. Because there has to be some sort of acquiescence to the system for some sort of success in that system.
J: Wait you mean…you’re saying that black slaves are acquiescent?
C: No, no, no, no, no…I’m talking about today, the way in which black people understand themselves. Or the ways in which, I was talking about the study, I really need to find the exact name so I can cite it, the ways in which black people understand most black people to be in poverty whereas most black people are middle class.
J: Right, but I…I just don’t know if acquiescence is the right word to use there because even if, maybe there is a degree of acquiescence maybe today, its based on historical, like…
C: Well, we can’t change the past.
J: Right. But recognizing the past, in some ways the benefit of colonialism is it allows for this national self-identity and this national struggle.
C: Well, I wouldn’t say benefit.
J: Well…not a benefit necessarily, but you know Benedict Anderson writes about, like, colonialism frequently brought with it presses and these presses would become sort of like the press brings with it, nationalist groups co-opt the press and begin writing stuff…
C: Right.
J: And if nothing else colonialism allows for something to define yourself against much more than the experience of American slavery I think.
C: Right, I’m agreeing with you.
J: Because part of what American slavery did, part of the way America solved the crisis of slavery I think is that the slaves actually are now part of the country that enslaved them.
C: Right.
J: You know, they don’t have an opportunity to form an antithetical revolutionary bloc that’s opposed to America. They actually have to claim that American half of African-American.
C: Right.
J: Which ends up being a much stronger genealogical and historical…and that’s sort of the real tragedy of slavery is its almost like asking…as I said before it’s a very strong example, but its almost like Hitler somehow managing to integrate the Jews into Nazi Germany…you know? Like you’ve…
C: Yeah, you beat someone down enough and they believe it.
J: Well, not only…its not only beating them down its like beating them down and then making them part of you club in a way so that, you… after having beaten them down for a long enough period they no longer belong to another club. Or, not that they don’t belong to any other club in reality, because of course they do but that they have no memory or that you really cut all historical ties as much as you can. And then, and then when you put them in that club you know I don’t think you can even use words like acquiescent or…
C: Well, I agree but if you don’t then there is no hope for recovery.
J: Well, I guess the question of recovery depends on who you are addressing the question of recovery too: Blacks in America or Americans as a people. You know….everyone in America? I think the responsibility is actually on the club, or the country, or whatever itself to address this issue in its entirety. I don’t think you can expect blacks in America to come to terms with slavery by themselves.
C: I don’t think you can expect America to do that work either.
J: Well, reasonably of course. But, like… practically…
C: But what I’m saying is the system doesn’t serve blacks.
J: Right.
C: Well, it does. That’s where it comes into the global context.
J: What do you mean that’s where it comes into the global context?
C: Well, I mean, to a degree in a lot of ways whiteness is conflated with being American. And you know, you could talk about, if you’re gonna parallel colonial occupations to what global corporations, neocolonialism now every American enjoys the privileges of whiteness the same way colonizers enjoyed it.
J: Right, but blacks enjoy limited privileges of Americanness. You know, blacks in America actually enjoy privileges of Americanness to the degree that they can claim those global privileges, but not to a degree that whites in America enjoy them. So in some ways…
C: Right, but I mean in the world…
J: Rr…uh…yeah…
C: I mean, just think about the power of an American passport.
J: Right, but you can also say that if you’re a black man in America chances are much more likely that you’ll be in prison than out of the country, you know?
C: It’s true.
J: So in fact, the experience of a lot of black men in the country is probably worse than the majority of the world, the majority of the rest of the world because it’s the experience of prison life. And although, but that…
C: Well I dunno, let’s not, let’s not say better or worse than. I don’t think you can make that kind of judgment.
J: Alight fine. We won’t say better or worse, but all I’ll say is substantially worse than the average American experience, what’s portrayed as the average American experience.
C: You mean the white experience, right.
J: So, you know, it’s almost like blacks have been given a like, and I dunno if blacks is the appropriate word to use here, people of color, or whatever… some…some other term might be more appropriate, but it’s almost like one bite of a carrot on a stick…
C: Well, you know are race relations, are race relations in the states really black and white?
J: Are they? Or they are?
C: I’m asking. You know I think in a lot of ways that just might be true. The way that we have come to understand race…
J: Right.
C: …is so much based on slavery.
J: Right.
C: That, you know, every other minority group is just understood in the same way to a limited degree.
J: You’re saying that every other minority group is understood as black, or has to pick a side on that black/white divide?
C: Has to pick a side.
J: Yeah because I think that is true. I think minority groups, I think there are minority groups that are definitely…
C: Or not has to pick a side, will be assigned a side…
J: Will be assigned a side. Right, that end up on different sides, right.
C: Well if you’re, and it depends if you’re…some groups do have a choice. You can cite the case of the Irish. That was a choice for the Irish to ally themselves with whiteness.
J: Well…
C: And I mean it’s a really strange experience for me being Irish and African.
J: I don’t know. I mean…
C: No, it’s true.
J: I don’t know how much I would say it was like a wholesale choice on the part of the Irish to align themselves with whiteness.
C: No, Justin it really was. You can read the article there. It really really was.
J: Right, but what I think it was, was a choice for the Irish to get out of a shit situation. You know?
C: But does that make it right?
J: Uhhh…no, it doesn’t make it right, but I think when you said it was a choice…
C: I mean we can’t…
J: …for them to pick whiteness that makes them sound more culpable. You know, like…
C: Yeah I mean sure, you might be better off. I mean, that’s just saying morality is based on making the choice that ends up better for you.
J: Well, but here’s the deal. I don’t think the norms of whiteness are inherently wrong. Like, the privileges that white people enjoy in America I think are privileges everyone should enjoy. Mostly. By and large those privileges.
C: But they’re, they can only exist if everyone else is ignored.
J: Yeah, of course they are unethical in context, but that means if a group from below has a chance to get up to that norm, which in and of itself isn’t wrong, necessarily, you know, in and of itself.
C: But I mean, you can’t even argue that…
J: I guess.
C: …if it was wrong at the time. It was wrong.
J: I guess you can’t. Whatever. The Irish. I uh… it was a big fuck up. But, its certainly, I don’t think they’re, like, unique in that choice at all. And I do, I don’t think that that choice…I think that’s a choice that if extended to other, other, uh…minority groups…I dunno…might be…might have ended up (computer restarting noise)…in the same way.
C: But that doesn’t make it right.
J: It doesn’t make it right. I’m not gonna defend the Irish in America, they were just terribly racist and in many ways continue to be, but I dunno…umm….there was something else that we said earlier that I had wanted to…talk about. Umm…whiteness, slavery, shit…
C: Global context?
J: Global context…ummm…yeah, anyway, I mean, I just think that the American, because the American experience of race is kind of at the crossroads of colonialism and slavery…
C: Of if, well…
J: In a lot of ways, American…blacks in America have a particularly difficult lot. And that’s, that’s one in which they’re denied a national heritage…and…denied a national heritage while simultaneously…
C: Denied a national heritage as problematic as a national heritage, a postcolonial national heritage may be.
J: Right. Denied a national heritage as problematic as a colonial national heritage may be and only given access to a national heritage…
C: That doesn’t accept them.
J: …in which they are slaves. Right. You know. And then, not only in which they are slaves, but in which they are slaves and then in the present day in which they are continually denied or, I dunno… treated unfairly within the system.
C: But what do you think about the role of, I dunno…umm…so you really think it has to be an all or nothing type, you know, it can only work if…you know, the country, meaning really whites…umm…work to change things? I really think that complicity is an issue. And I think that of course complicity is created by media portrayals or its constantly being reinforced, but I think there comes a point when it has to be rejected. I mean you can look at the black power movement. You know, ‘black is beautiful’. It sounds even trite to say it now, but that was groundbreaking to say at the time. To both claim an identity that is marked in this country and to give it a positive spin. We take that for granted now.
J: Right.
C: But to say something like that…
J: The difficulty, anyway, sorry go ahead.
C: I’m just saying there are people who are recognizing and refusing to be complicit.
J: Yeah, the difficulty is that its just very difficult when you don’t have a clear paradigm like a nationalist struggle. It’s like, part of the problem with the Black Panthers, or black power movements are, like, you can’t exactly figure out how much you want to break from America. Are you trying to start your own country? It’s like, what are you trying to do? You can start a movement that’s blacks only, but then where are you going to go from there? How are you going to change institutional America? Are you gonna start a race war? A civil war where you start your own country within America?
C: But, I mean, a lot of the privileges of whiteness aren’t institutionalized.
J: Well a lot of them are, and I think particularly ones you can take issue with are.
C: Well is the prison one, lets say the case of black males being in prison. Is that institutionalized or socialized?
J: It’s not institutionalized as in written into the law, but its institutionalized as in the way the law functions.
C: Well, isn’t that socialized then? You know these are, if its not written in stone then these are individuals…
J: Right, and that’s socialized. A socialized change can only take place with the entire society. Partly because of the limits of democracy. Unless you can mobilize a black voting bloc that’s larger than half the population…
C: But, I mean, what about the change that’s not institutional?
J: Like what?
C: Like the fact that the reason that black men are arrested is because white cops, because we’re taught to fear black men, because black men are a threat to society. That’s not going to be changed by laws.
J: Right, I’m saying that’s not going to be changed by laws, but because that’s a societal change you can’t expect only blacks in society to change that. Because all these societal things are intersections, like points of intersection when it comes to race…
C: Right, I’m not saying that only blacks should change that. I’m just saying, in a way do we give them greater responsibility?
J: Greater responsibility, maybe. But I think sort of exclusive black movements like the Black Power movement or the Black Panthers, which I understand aren’t wholly exclusive…
C: And at the same time, you’d have to be claiming a marked category to do that. And, you know, should anyone be forced to do that?
J: What do you mean by claiming a marked category?
C: Claiming blackness. You’d have to claim blackness. There’s…that just reminds me of people talking in class. You know, like, in order for me to make a point that…I dunno, the work that I would have to do in the class would have to be racialized. You know, I felt many times that I was being expected to identify as a woman of color in order to do work that needed to be done. Does that make sense? Like…I’m trying to think of a good way to put this…you know, a lot of these categories…blackness, it’s not biological, it’s not skin color, it’s history, let’s say. In the U.S., black is history. But…
J: Black history month.
C: Right. But… You’re not just claiming, I can understand it as just history, but to claim blackness is not just to claim history. It’s to…at least right now, to claim a certain set of beliefs.
J: Break this down concretely, what do you mean ‘it’s not just claiming history’? When you say, and what do you mean by claiming blackness? You’re saying if you were to come to someone and say “I’m black” you’re saying more than…
C: I’m saying if you’re gonna say okay it’s wrong for all these men to be in prison. Like say Al Sharpton is getting a group of people together…Million Man March. Let’s say Million Man March…
J: Alright.
C: …Those men weren’t just claiming to be…the receivers of…terrible trauma…
J: terrible historical trauma…
C: Not necessarily.
J: Or terrible personal trauma?
C: Both.
J: Right.
C: You know, when…
J: Are you just saying that…?
C: You have to take on a category that you didn’t give yourself in the first place. That’s what I’m saying.
J: Take on a category that you didn’t give yourself, or that wasn’t given to you in the first place? You’re saying they’re claiming something beyond the trauma.
C: I’m saying their claiming something that was given them. That they didn’t have a choice.
J: Okay. Oh, oh. So you’re saying they have to accept the trauma as part of it, or whatever…
C: Not even accept the trauma, but accept the…
J: Accept their lack of agency.
C: Right.
J: As part of this.
C: Exactly. Exactly.
J: Yeah, I definitely think that’s, you know, I definitely think that’s…
C: I mean, at least lack of agency in naming.
J: In establishing the categories.
C: Right.
J: Right. Yeah…
C: And that’s my fear with, you know, whiteness. Is that, it too much forces others to accept…
J: …categories that they had not part in the making of.
C: Exactly.
J: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I mean, that’s, like, something that is probably true for everyone who has to identify themselves in any racialized context anytime. It’s not like, I dunno, yeah. I definitely agree with that.
C: And that’s why I made a personal decision over the course of the semester never to identify myself as a person of color. And I also…
J: Listen to these rubrics, female of color.
C: Exactly.
J: It’s always broken down on gender and race.
C: Exactly. And…
J: I think that’s probably a topic for a whole other conversation though.
C: We could talk about that too if we wanted.
J: No, you know what I was thinking maybe we should do. We should say that we’ll post a series of conversations. We already have like half an hour of material. This is like 20 pages probably. What we can just do is post the beginning of a conversation and then just keep posting more on the blog when we feel like it. It’ll actually be beyond the safety of theory.
C: That’s what we’re talking about. That’s what this should be. This is actually beyond the safety of theory.
J: We’ll just call it beyond the safety of theory. It’s a conversation so it’s beyond theory. It’s also beyond the class.
C: And let’s just say we’re agreeing to call each other out. There’s no one else…
J: Let’s not say call each other out.
C: Ok, we’re…
J: We’re agreeing to speak candidly.
C: Exactly. And to question each other. And…
J: And to question each other.
C: And…
J: Just to have a frank dialogue. You know? Which we’ll then make public. For whoever cares to read it.
C: Right.
J: And you know what we can say? Comment.
C: But that’s what I’m thinking, like…I made a decision not to identify as a woman of color, but at the same time wasn’t that coerced?
J: Wasn’t that coerced…?
C: What if I want to identify as a woman of color? It carries so much with it that even if its my choice it doesn’t seem like it any more.
J: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, well, this is like the dilemma of self-identity for blacks in America I think that whites don’t face. But here is the thing, whites don’t face it. And I almost feel like because whites don’t face it they lose something because they don’t have this coming to terms, and I am not trying to say that whiteness brings with it some sort of secret emotional baggage that, like, there’s the lost soul of White Protestants or whatever, but because, because whiteness brings with it economic, institutional, and societal privilege it’s almost like, I remember there was something we read in class that talked about whiteness as hollow. As hollowness. It’s almost like these questions which go unasked for white people can be filled with privilege, wealth, and societal status. But in the end, how much does that really get you? And then how much do you end up looking to people of color to fill that void? I was talking with a girl I do tutoring with on the way back from tutoring and she said she had read some study about, you know, the largest consumer group for hip hop in America is white males. Adolescent white males who frequently take masculine imagery from their conception of “black guys” because they are seen as more masculinized bodies: more muscular, stronger, bigger penises, all kinds of things. They’re supposed to be paragons of masculinity which are not acceptable to access in white society, and then are, so, so, like hip hop, or consumable culture, consumable black culture becomes that outlet. It kind of speaks to this hunger of whiteness, it’s like agghhh… this consuming…
C: Yeah, it’s consuming.
J: …this consuming void. It just has to consume something. And I know it’s frequently talked about this way but it’s just like, it just sucks…
C: Oh, and I thought of another thing that we should say. We should say that because we are not sitting with papers in front of us, and because we’re not citing statistics, our incorrect assumptions only speak to…
J: …our own…
C: …experiences and the ways in which we understand whiteness. And if they’re wrong their still valuable in examining…
J: But I think we should go back into the conversation and maybe put brackets with links to stuff that we cited or maybe correct versions of stuff that we cite incorrectly. It’s good to have facts, we shouldn’t just talk totally out of our ass.
C: No, I’m not saying that.
J: So, I think that’s a very worthwhile thing. I think actually we probably have enough material for a first installment.
C: Okay.
J: And just say that we’ll continue doing it.
C: Do we have anything else we want to talk about?
J: Yeah, we have tons of other stuff on here. I think we only really talked about one or two of those things. Like we didn’t even get into study abroad, or praxis, I guess…this is sort of an example of praxis, but all kinds of other stuff…
C: Well, let’s talk candidly. What do you think is your greatest privilege enjoyed by being a white male?
J: By being a white male? …I mean, if I just had to answer, like the first thing that comes to my head, without even saying it…
C: We should ask more questions like these.
J: Okay. Sure. If I had to answer immediately. The first thing that comes to my head is definitely institutional privilege when interacting with law enforcement. I feel like, you know, that’s like the most, for me, at least, what’s been the most noticeable and real privilege of being a white person is being able to approach a police officer without being afraid. Or at least, being able to approach a police officer knowing that my fear is fear that…that’s like, not rational, but just like…knowing that I have power over that police officer. Or knowing that police officer actually is a public servant.
C: Or is acting in your interest.
J: Is a servant of me, you know…really. And actually that’s observable privilege, observable in contrast, because I have been in situations where it’s like dramatically different interactions between me and people of color right in the same…
C: What do you think…
J: …that’d be the first thing I’d say.
C: What do you think, is this weird…I claim that for myself. Even knowing everything that I do…
J: You claim what?
C: I claim that if I go up to a police officer he or she will be working in my best interest. And then I treat, on an individual basis, those times when it’s not. When that doesn’t happen. And…I dunno, I think there’s. I think there definitely is…I’m not…I’m not ignoring what I know to be true. But at the same time, I don’t know if it’s useful to be assuming…I don’t know. I’m so much, maybe even to the point, maybe even to a fault, trying to focus on the value of individual interactions. I can’t remember what video it is, but it’s about this, it’s the opposite of ‘Oh, I’m not a racist, I have a black friend’. It was this black guy who went out and made friends with people in the KKK. And they would like, he had this whole collection of their robes, and he had that in his house and he would like, and, you know he was saying they still don’t like black people,
J: …but they like him?
C: But they like him.
J: Right. Right. Right.
C: He was heavily criticized for doing that. But…
J: There is value to that I think.
C: I mean, there is some value and there is definitely some naiveté to doing that.
J: Well, there is totally naiveté, but I think part of what interaction. And you often here of stuff like this with homosexuality, in a weird way, you know? It’s often like, ‘If you don’t like gay people, try meeting one, you’ll really like them.’ And then that individual reaction is somehow seen as able to, like, it’s interesting in the case of homosexuality because I think a lot of people’s problems with homosexuality come from religion. Come from Christianity. And so it’s weird…
C: Or Islam…
J: Or Islam, or..
C: Judaism.
J: Or Judaism. But in this country mostly Christianity I’d say. And it’s weird because just like in that KKK sense if you can think of the Klan as sort of like their religion they can sort of decontextualize a personal interaction, but they still have their faith. And that speaks more to the importance of community and like a racist community is really what people look for I think more than…people don’t join the Klan necessarily because they have an inveterate hatred of blacks to begin with. I think they look for community, and if that community is going to be united by hatred, united by some sort of common enemy…
C: Well that,
J: Fine.
C: Well, I do agree with that, but not necessarily in that case because it is…
J: I don’t mean to equate, I don’t mean to equate the Klan with the Church.
C: …it’s a power group and it is a terrorist group. You know it’s not just about ‘Let’s get together and talk shit about black people’, it’s like ‘Let’s get together and burn black churches down.’ You know…
J: But the…
C: I understand what you are saying but not in the context of a terrorist group.
J: But the important, what I am saying is the important thing, is all those sentences begin with ‘Let’s get together…’. It’s people acting together, you know?
C: Right.
J: And so it’s that sense of togetherness that’s important.
C: That’s what I think you have to…disrupt that feeling of togetherness.
J: Within those groups?
C: Right.
J: (sarcastic) Terrorist action. You’re saying we need to shoot KKK members. Make them afraid to get together, and then tackle them as individuals.
C: (sarcastic) Exactly.
J: Wait, we should include a little editor’s note here. Claire’s father is an employee of the NYPD.
C: That’s true.
J: I think that probably as something to do with you considering police interactions on a personal level.
C: That’s not true the police department has been horribly racist to my father.
J: Oh, I’m not surprised. I’m not surprised it was that at all.
C: But what I’m saying is, that’s where I really got it from. Yes, it’s totally from my father.
J: Yeah.
C: Because he has just lived through so much terrible stuff. He lived through the revolution in the Congo, then he moved to the U.S. where he literally came with the shirt on his back. People use that expression, but he didn’t even have a suitcase, he…
J: No shirt on the front. Only shirt on the back.
C: Ha, no shirt on the front. Just, you know, he had his passport and that was it.
J: Right.
C: I don’t even know if he had his passport because he was escaping. And, he was escaping horrible persecution from his own people. He comes to a country where, you know, like what are the options here for a black man? He still…
J: …gets employed by the police.
C: He still gets employed by the police and…I think he feels he is doing valuable work.
J: He is. What’s your dad doing exactly? We should…
C: But, I think, I think…
J: …we should say that.
C: Well, even when, you know, he always says ‘I never try to change anyone’s mind’. He is like, I’m sorry…
J: No, no, no… go ahead.
C: He’s like...if someone is saying horrible things to me I’m not gonna say that. He’s like, my own personhood is an example.
J: My life is my example.
C: My life is my example.
J: That’s Gandhi, right? Like, my life is my example. You must be the change you want to see in the world.
C: Exactly.
J: I think that’s the…Act locally think globally…blah, blah, blah
C: Right, but I mean let’s talk about police. Is it better to acknowledge what they do and mistrust them or, or… just hope? I guess it’s just hope. Is it worth it to…
J: (sigh) Well, see, this is the thing though. I think this kind of, in some ways, comes back to a colonial/slavery dialectic. Your dad is coming from a country as an adult. He is not growing up in a situation and inheriting a situation…
C: That’s true. That’s so true.
J: …where. Your dad can actually afford to come to a country and hope that the police will treat him fairly, because that’s the assumption.
C: Right.
J: Police are meant to treat him fairly. But if you grow up…
C: Right, and he grew up in that time when there was so much hope. Let’s get freedom, you know…
J: Totally, it’s this freedom, proto-nationalist whatever. But if you grow up in a place where the police are…
C: And also he was taught the worth and the…you know.. of a black man. That’s…
J: Yeah. He has a sort of formed identity. But if you grow up in a country where the police essentially act as like a government extension of the KKK, I know that’s extreme, but like a group that kind of terrorizes you, it’s totally reasonable I think to be afraid of them. Just naturally. And it doesn’t mean you can’t, you know, of course I think that makes it a much more beautiful thing when you’re hopeful, but it’s a much more understandable thing if you’re afraid of the cops.
C: Right, and not necessarily counterproductive either.
J: Cause they’re probably gonna treat you badly.
C: Right.
J: You know, it’s not unfair to assume that. Umm…
